QUESTION: You were suspended as Sadtu president in August last year. How have the past eight months been?
A: The question of not having a plan for a day, weeks and for months is quite frustrating. My family is suffering. I was never paid for being a union leader, but did get allowances for travelling, accommodation and food. But that has been stopped since I was suspended. I now survive on my teaching salary.
Q: Some say you are part of a cabal which is sowing seeds of tribalism in both Cosatu and Sadtu. Is this true?
A: This started towards the Mangaung conference because we were critical of some ANC policy proposals including the National Development Plan. (But) we criticised former president Thabo Mbeki’s reconstruction and development policy in the same way. We are hard on our own in the interests of the poor masses.
They are reducing what confronts us to tribal tensions. But we are not sectorial in any way. I know Zwelinzima Vavi’s interest and my interest is national and international, not regional. This tribal claim will cause an enormous damage to the unity of the working class as lead by the ANC.
Q: When did you realise you were not welcome in the Sadtu central executive committee?
A: A cloud has been hanging over my head for some time. This all started with Cosatu and Sadtu’s
position on the secrecy bill. Sadtu did not want the secrecy bill, but (SACP leader) Blade Nzimande
created confusion at the 2011 national general council (NGC). He was unhappy about what we (Sadtu) were supporting. Those who are taught that everything Blade says is correct were not aware of Sadtu’s position on the matter.
Q: How did the tensions with the CEC play out?
A: At some point I was gagged from speaking to the media. I had to run everything through the office of the general secretary. But that is unconstitutional. There is only one person who has representative functions in Sadtu – the president. This means at all material times, whether it is a funeral or a rally, the only authentic person who can represent Sadtu is the president. But I’ve been gagged all along.
Q: It has been suggested that you are the problem. Why not resign and allow Sadtu to grow?
A: In a union we speak of worker control. One doesn’t take decisions without a mandate from the workers.
Q: Would you consider leaving politics?
A: I did tell my comrades that if this doesn’t work out, let me leave the union. The union is not the end. But at the same time you’re afraid to dump your comrades just like that, especially your supporters. I am sensitive to that.
Q: I’m sure this uncertainty is frustrating your wife, kids and relatives. Why choose your comrades before your family?
A: One thing I’m certain of is that the central issue in both the crisis in Cosatu and in Sadtu is neither myself nor Vavi. The question is not about personalities. It is about how we restore the character of these organisations.
Q: So what is behind all the ructions?
A: The reason Cosatu was formed was to unite workers. It’s always dangerous when unions or churches are aligned to any political party.
Q: But all along you have had the power to influence Cosatu to pull out of the alliance. Why only raise this now?
A: How do we continue to justify our alliance with the ANC when the same party fails to ban labour brokers? The party voted in favour of a secrecy bill and youth wage subsidy against our will. But again we are afraid to ask, as workers, what is it that we are getting from this alliance. Housing subsidies were better in the past. Housing subsidies for teachers dropped from R1500 under the apartheid government to a mere R900. You now find teachers in shacks and RDP houses. We don’t seem to be championing these things.
Q: As Sadtu’s president why did you not address these issues earlier?
A: The engine of any organisation is a general secretary. When they don’t want to do something, they take decisions as a CEC. What is killing Cosatu is the javelin approach by union leaders.
Q: What do you mean?
A: Union leaders want to please the ANC because they want to be deployed in government.
Q: Numsa president Cedric Gcina is quoted saying Numsa general secretary Irvin Jim is angry that President Jacob
Zuma refused to accept your proposal that Vavi should stand as his deputy at the Mangaung elective conference in December 2012. Were you aware of Jim’s visits to Nkandla in the run up to Mangaung?
A: All of us as leaders visit Zuma in Nkandla, whether one supports him or not. Everyone goes there because he remains the party’s and country’s president. I confirm that Jim went there, and on most occasions I was with him. I think three times. Among the issues we discussed was the role we (Cosatu) could play as a federation to build the ANC and assist the party towards the Mangaung conference. Of course, we were interested in establishing how to ensure that the workers would be represented in the Mangaung outcome.
Q: How? By making your homeboy Vavi a deputy president of the ANC?
A: There was a general view in some sectors of society that Vavi should be among the leaders who should serve in the ANC NEC. But he has always expressed a different view saying he would not be able to serve in there while still representing workers from Cosatu. He rejected the offer. Same applies to Jim. But others felt Vavi should be nominated but reject the nomination if he wanted to. It’s a lie that Jim went to Nkandla to fight for Vavi to become deputy president.
There was a discussion generally, but it was not Jim’s baby. On all the three occasions that I was in Nkandla, Gcina was also there. We expressed views being expressed in society. This was not raised by Jim as an individual, but by various sectors of society. And it’s not as if Jim went there for that issue only. There were discussions about many people: Cyril (Ramaphosa), Kgalema (Motlanthe), Vavi and Tokyo Sexwale.
Q: So, if you did not go to Nkandla to put your comrades up for succession in the ANC, elaborate the other things that were so important that you went so far three times, in and out of Nkandla, to have discussions with the president?
A: Julius Malema’s conduct. Malema was still within the ANC. This was after he vilified ANC secretary general Gwede Mantashe.
Q: I understand your life and the lives of your family have been under threat. What happened?
A: It started with strangers breaking lights around the concrete wall of my home near Port Elizabeth. Rotten eggs were thrown at my house and faeces stuffed inside the damaged lights. Bottles would be thrown into my house.
That was 2010-11. Thereafter a black BMW chased my son on his way from varsity – luckily he was unharmed. My wife also received dodgy calls from a woman claiming to be the mother of my child and from Johannesburg. I don’t know anything about her.
Q: Did you report it to the police?
A: I raised this with the Sadtu general secretary (Magwena Maluleke) but nothing was done. I had to put up cameras to establish who was behind this, with little or no help from the union. I was forced to rope in my friend to help me protect my family. We have since moved the family to East London. First we rented a flat. Later a friend came to our rescue and offered us his house. My life is really under threat.
Q: What if you are booted out of Sadtu?
A: I would like to work for an independent institute like the Mathew Goniwe Institute, or the heritage institutions. All of these are part of the movement but they are free to criticise the ANC.
I want to be able to freely air my views and not be accused of offending anyone.
OUT IN THE COLD
A: The question of not having a plan for a day, weeks and for months is quite frustrating. My family is suffering. I was never paid for being a union leader, but did get allowances for travelling, accommodation and food. But that has been stopped since I was suspended. I now survive on my teaching salary.
Q: Some say you are part of a cabal which is sowing seeds of tribalism in both Cosatu and Sadtu. Is this true?
A: This started towards the Mangaung conference because we were critical of some ANC policy proposals including the National Development Plan. (But) we criticised former president Thabo Mbeki’s reconstruction and development policy in the same way. We are hard on our own in the interests of the poor masses.
They are reducing what confronts us to tribal tensions. But we are not sectorial in any way. I know Zwelinzima Vavi’s interest and my interest is national and international, not regional. This tribal claim will cause an enormous damage to the unity of the working class as lead by the ANC.
Q: When did you realise you were not welcome in the Sadtu central executive committee?
A: A cloud has been hanging over my head for some time. This all started with Cosatu and Sadtu’s
position on the secrecy bill. Sadtu did not want the secrecy bill, but (SACP leader) Blade Nzimande
created confusion at the 2011 national general council (NGC). He was unhappy about what we (Sadtu) were supporting. Those who are taught that everything Blade says is correct were not aware of Sadtu’s position on the matter.
Q: How did the tensions with the CEC play out?
A: At some point I was gagged from speaking to the media. I had to run everything through the office of the general secretary. But that is unconstitutional. There is only one person who has representative functions in Sadtu – the president. This means at all material times, whether it is a funeral or a rally, the only authentic person who can represent Sadtu is the president. But I’ve been gagged all along.
Q: It has been suggested that you are the problem. Why not resign and allow Sadtu to grow?
A: In a union we speak of worker control. One doesn’t take decisions without a mandate from the workers.
Q: Would you consider leaving politics?
A: I did tell my comrades that if this doesn’t work out, let me leave the union. The union is not the end. But at the same time you’re afraid to dump your comrades just like that, especially your supporters. I am sensitive to that.
Q: I’m sure this uncertainty is frustrating your wife, kids and relatives. Why choose your comrades before your family?
A: One thing I’m certain of is that the central issue in both the crisis in Cosatu and in Sadtu is neither myself nor Vavi. The question is not about personalities. It is about how we restore the character of these organisations.
Q: So what is behind all the ructions?
A: The reason Cosatu was formed was to unite workers. It’s always dangerous when unions or churches are aligned to any political party.
Q: But all along you have had the power to influence Cosatu to pull out of the alliance. Why only raise this now?
A: How do we continue to justify our alliance with the ANC when the same party fails to ban labour brokers? The party voted in favour of a secrecy bill and youth wage subsidy against our will. But again we are afraid to ask, as workers, what is it that we are getting from this alliance. Housing subsidies were better in the past. Housing subsidies for teachers dropped from R1500 under the apartheid government to a mere R900. You now find teachers in shacks and RDP houses. We don’t seem to be championing these things.
Q: As Sadtu’s president why did you not address these issues earlier?
A: The engine of any organisation is a general secretary. When they don’t want to do something, they take decisions as a CEC. What is killing Cosatu is the javelin approach by union leaders.
Q: What do you mean?
A: Union leaders want to please the ANC because they want to be deployed in government.
Q: Numsa president Cedric Gcina is quoted saying Numsa general secretary Irvin Jim is angry that President Jacob
Zuma refused to accept your proposal that Vavi should stand as his deputy at the Mangaung elective conference in December 2012. Were you aware of Jim’s visits to Nkandla in the run up to Mangaung?
A: All of us as leaders visit Zuma in Nkandla, whether one supports him or not. Everyone goes there because he remains the party’s and country’s president. I confirm that Jim went there, and on most occasions I was with him. I think three times. Among the issues we discussed was the role we (Cosatu) could play as a federation to build the ANC and assist the party towards the Mangaung conference. Of course, we were interested in establishing how to ensure that the workers would be represented in the Mangaung outcome.
Q: How? By making your homeboy Vavi a deputy president of the ANC?
A: There was a general view in some sectors of society that Vavi should be among the leaders who should serve in the ANC NEC. But he has always expressed a different view saying he would not be able to serve in there while still representing workers from Cosatu. He rejected the offer. Same applies to Jim. But others felt Vavi should be nominated but reject the nomination if he wanted to. It’s a lie that Jim went to Nkandla to fight for Vavi to become deputy president.
There was a discussion generally, but it was not Jim’s baby. On all the three occasions that I was in Nkandla, Gcina was also there. We expressed views being expressed in society. This was not raised by Jim as an individual, but by various sectors of society. And it’s not as if Jim went there for that issue only. There were discussions about many people: Cyril (Ramaphosa), Kgalema (Motlanthe), Vavi and Tokyo Sexwale.
Q: So, if you did not go to Nkandla to put your comrades up for succession in the ANC, elaborate the other things that were so important that you went so far three times, in and out of Nkandla, to have discussions with the president?
A: Julius Malema’s conduct. Malema was still within the ANC. This was after he vilified ANC secretary general Gwede Mantashe.
Q: I understand your life and the lives of your family have been under threat. What happened?
A: It started with strangers breaking lights around the concrete wall of my home near Port Elizabeth. Rotten eggs were thrown at my house and faeces stuffed inside the damaged lights. Bottles would be thrown into my house.
That was 2010-11. Thereafter a black BMW chased my son on his way from varsity – luckily he was unharmed. My wife also received dodgy calls from a woman claiming to be the mother of my child and from Johannesburg. I don’t know anything about her.
Q: Did you report it to the police?
A: I raised this with the Sadtu general secretary (Magwena Maluleke) but nothing was done. I had to put up cameras to establish who was behind this, with little or no help from the union. I was forced to rope in my friend to help me protect my family. We have since moved the family to East London. First we rented a flat. Later a friend came to our rescue and offered us his house. My life is really under threat.
Q: What if you are booted out of Sadtu?
A: I would like to work for an independent institute like the Mathew Goniwe Institute, or the heritage institutions. All of these are part of the movement but they are free to criticise the ANC.
I want to be able to freely air my views and not be accused of offending anyone.
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